The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Scotchmo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:25 am

Leo Duran wrote:
Scotchmo wrote:Leo,
Why does does the first sentence still say:
"Targets must be clearly visible from any shooting position,..." ?


Good question.
Any position is allowed on free position targets, so the point is that MD's should make targets visible from ANY position,
and the "at least from" part should be an exception due to mother nature, and not to the whims of the MD.


If that is the point, why not say:
"Targets should be clearly visible from any shooting position,..."

then, I think it belongs in the Match Guidelines instead.
------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as I've seen, all venues have sufficient possibilities to set a course without those exceptions. Using terrain features to present visibility challenges is often done on purpose by placing the targets within that terrain feature. The argument that terrain features prevented them from complying is a convenient excuse that is now accepted as a reason for a match director to break the rule. Put me on any venue and I can guarantee that I could set/fix a course that would comply regardless of the terrain features. It just takes a little care/imagination/effort.

Some MDs think terrain feature challenges make the local matches more interesting, and I agree. The handbook could simply allow it as a normal part of a FT course if that is the direction that we wanted to go.

Reading through the rules/exception, the bottom line is:
Terrain feature challenges are allowed at local matches. GP matches are an exception with the 15" rule. Accept that and we can drop the pretense of "must be clearly visible from any position".
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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Paul P » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:23 pm

Reading through the rules/exception, the bottom line is:
Terrain feature challenges are allowed at local matches. GP matches are an exception with the 15" rule. Accept that and we can drop the pretense of "must be clearly visible from any position".


Scott, I myself love when a target is positioned to be a challenge relating to natural features. Like in a tree, but behind and between the crux. From most positions, parts of the target are hidden from view, but he KZ is still visible. You may need to move in the shooters box to see the KZ even. This makes the course more interesting for me. A bit of a challenge? Of course. But I was under the impression that the GP was a place for a shooter to try and shoot against other folks from the region, but from different clubs.

GP matches, attract shooters that are confident enough in their skill, to travel and meet a harder challenge than at the local club match. I would be disappointed if I spent time and money, to go to a GP, and the course was wide open and clear to all targets. The course offering no further challenge other then ranging correctly and holding still. (wind of course too). You get the idea. Not that a very windy wide open field course is not a challenge.

The 15" rule covers the low positioned shooter now. Seeing the "KZ" (not target) from all positions, would suffice for the half hidden by terrain/natural features. This, to allow a MD to make more interesting/challenging targets at a GP. I prefer rulings that will not hamstring the MD and still be compliant with the AAFTA rules.

I applaud your effort to try and get the rulings clarified. I am with you and Leo there. Yes, we want to present the fun aspect of the sport, but at the major events we should strive for a more seriously competitive spirit as well. Just my humble opinion....
Beware the man who only owns one gun, for he knows how to use it!
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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Leo Duran » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:47 pm

Reading through the rules/exception, the bottom line is:
Terrain feature challenges are allowed at local matches. GP matches are an exception with the 15" rule. Accept that and we can drop the pretense of "must be clearly visible from any position".


Well, call it what you want, but let's live with it for the foseeable future, shall we?
Let's move on!... Happy Holidays!
Leo Duran
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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Scotchmo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:29 pm

Paul P wrote:Reading through the rules/exception, the bottom line is:
Terrain feature challenges are allowed at local matches. GP matches are an exception with the 15" rule. Accept that and we can drop the pretense of "must be clearly visible from any position".


Scott, I myself love when a target is positioned to be a challenge relating to natural features. Like in a tree, but behind and between the crux. From most positions, parts of the target are hidden from view, but he KZ is still visible. You may need to move in the shooters box to see the KZ even. This makes the course more interesting for me. A bit of a challenge? Of course. But I was under the impression that the GP was a place for a shooter to try and shoot against other folks from the region, but from different clubs.

GP matches, attract shooters that are confident enough in their skill, to travel and meet a harder challenge than at the local club match. I would be disappointed if I spent time and money, to go to a GP, and the course was wide open and clear to all targets. The course offering no further challenge other then ranging correctly and holding still. (wind of course too). You get the idea. Not that a very windy wide open field course is not a challenge.

The 15" rule covers the low positioned shooter now. Seeing the "KZ" (not target) from all positions, would suffice for the half hidden by terrain/natural features. This, to allow a MD to make more interesting/challenging targets at a GP. I prefer rulings that will not hamstring the MD and still be compliant with the AAFTA rules.

I applaud your effort to try and get the rulings clarified. I am with you and Leo there. Yes, we want to present the fun aspect of the sport, but at the major events we should strive for a more seriously competitive spirit as well. Just my humble opinion....


Paul,

You can still have positional challenges at GP matches. But you are limited to 20 shots of that type, and they must be designated ahead of time.

It was decided some time ago that AAFTA would present positional challenges as designated lanes. That works on venues with or without terrain challenges.
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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Scotchmo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:32 pm

Leo Duran wrote:
Reading through the rules/exception, the bottom line is:
Terrain feature challenges are allowed at local matches. GP matches are an exception with the 15" rule. Accept that and we can drop the pretense of "must be clearly visible from any position".


Well, call it what you want, but let's live with it for the foseeable future, shall we?
Let's move on!... Happy Holidays!


OK - Let's live with the 2018 rules for two years.

What if over the next year, the BOG cleaned up the handbook and presented the 2020 Handbook draft for club review, on January 1, 2019. That would give a year for further comment and corrections. Better than all the last minute changes that we often see.

I think the BOG could remove about 10-20 pages of fluff, while making it clearer.
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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Ashland Air Rifle » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:48 pm

Leo,
Happy and Blessed Holidays to you and all air gun shooters everywhere..

Thanks for working on cleaning up vague wording on this and hopefully... like Scott said, thru out the whole handbook.
I think I understand why you are leaving it nebulous... but I predict that it will cause problems for MDs that don't prepare for all shooting styles... including the lowest possible..

Our courses will for sure allow for 12" to 60" on all targets.

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
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Re: The new target visibility rule - it's changed again

Postby Leo Duran » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:02 pm

Scotchmo wrote:OK - Let's live with the 2018 rules for two years.

Amen!

Scotchmo wrote:I think the BOG could remove about 10-20 pages of fluff, while making it clearer.

I won't argue that point... there's quite a bit of 'legacy' wording that has been rehashed over the years.
So yes, without really impacting the rules we could do some clean-up for a 2020 publication.

Happy Holidays!
Leo Duran
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